Sculpture and photography, 11 March 2021
um right shall we start um thank you for joining us for this session and looking at um about how both historical and contemporary sculpture can infect i can affect and inform our interpretation of sculptra um i'm committed stereotype i'm head of collection partnerships and commercial programs at art uk there's a couple of things to be aware of during the during the talks if you'd like to submit questions please use the q a button at the bottom and we'll have a section for a session for questions at the end and please don't put questions in the chat if possible because it's harder to keep track of them and you should also be aware that the event is being live captioned by my clear text through stage text and you can enable the captions by clicking on the cc closed caption button at the bottom of the screens and finally this session is being recorded and the video will be available on art uk's youtube channel in due course we'll be hearing some papers from michael pritchard and from derek trillo and alex patterson first to speak will be michael pritchard on photographing sculpture in the 19th century michael is director of education and public affairs at the royal photographic society he lectures and publishes regularly his most recent book being a history of photography and 50 cameras published by bloomsbury thank you michael great good afternoon the royal photographic society is one of our uk's partners for the public sculpture project and its members have undertaken a significant amount of photography for for that project following a pilot we hosted in advance of it launching the rps was founded as the photographic society in 1853 and its own history is intimately bound up with the history of photography art uk's project has parallels in the 19th century and i thought it might be useful to give a historical perspective to this conference and to discuss how and why sculpture was photographed in the 19th and very early 20th centuries mainly using examples from the uk the 19th century was one of rapid change and evolution and the arts was no exception to this photography and sculpture were as carol then has said quote constantly renewing for their own nature in photography this was done in several ways firstly it was chemical through process the daguerreotype and calotype of the early 1840s gave way to collodion in the 1850s and then to dry paints in the by the late 1870s developments in emulsions led to plates rocks roll and sheep films that were coated in emotions increasingly sensitive to light and with a wider sensitivity across the visible light spectrum from around 1906 panchromatic emulsions that were sensitive to all colors of the visible spectrum were available supplementing early earlier emulsions that had been more sensitive to the blue end secondly it was also optical through improvements in len designs with mathematics and calculation replacing trial and error in optical design from the 1890s new optical glasses improved how light was transmitted were introduced and these improvements minimized optical defects that affected the photographic image and thirdly it was also technical mechanization and the introduction of new materials and changes in manufacturing cameras and associated apparatus allowed for smaller lighter and more portable cameras the introduction of artificial light allowed photography to be undertaken more readily all year around in or away from the studio adding to this mix of demand for photography from amateurs with increased leisure time and more disposable income and a general wider demand for education and one can understand why photography was continually evolving and renewing itself in response to differing factors and how it could be used to satisfy a need to learn about the arts and the world around for sculpture this was as thin has said quote even more so as it departed from how it had been conceived and created from antiquity reaching a maturity and reaching for new ways of being quote essentially connected with its surroundings although sculpture had been documented in watercolor and oil for centuries in its own right or as part of other subjects it was photography that as it did with so many other areas gave it the ability to be seen and experienced more widely in detail and also within its wider setting and context this opened up questions about how it should be represented which were never quite resolved although sculpture was photographed from 1839 even as late as 1896 heinrich wuffin was still posing the question how should one photograph sculpture and providing answers in a series of papers he published in the german journal of art education he espoused an ideal viewpoint the sculpture against the plain background removing context and with the light emphasizing the sculptures form through the interplay of light and shadows from the photographic society's perspective photography was perfectly suited to representing fine arts frank howard's paper published in the society's journal in january 1854 highlighted its role for documenting art and sculpture as an artist aid for education and as an art form in itself from its introduction in 1839 and even before when daguerre and talbot were experimenting with their respective processes sculpture was an obvious subject to turn to at a time when exposures were measured in minutes sculpture was immovable marble sculpture or plaster cast also reflected more light which helped reduce exposure times writing in december 1839 to sir john herschel talbot noted quote i enclosed a little sketch of the interior of one of the rooms in this house with a bust of patroclus on a table he repeatedly returned to the buster petroclass not simply for experimental purposes but as an artistic exercise playing with different positions rotating the statue changing viewpoints and changing how it was illuminated the first public sculpture photographed was a bust of mary catherine mary water the daughter of the times newspaper proprietor which appeared as a frontier piece to a privately published memorial to her in 1844.
The sculpture was taken by nicholas henneman but been employed by talbot but was now running a photographic printing establishment in reading the bus was set against a dark background this practice of setting that sculpture against a neutral background was often the norm isolating it from the background and allowing the viewer to concentrate on it without distraction talbot included patroclus in his pencil of nature the first commercially published book illustrated with photographs which he issued between 1844 and 1846 on the printed matter accompanying the photographs he noted statues busts and other specimens of the sculpture are generally well represented by the photographic art and also very rapidly in consequences of their whiteness he observed that changing the position of the sculpture in the sun to produce new variations and changing the positions of the camera quote it becomes evident how very great a number of different effects may be obtained from a single specimen of sculpture talbot returned to patroclus some 30 or more times it became more than simply an immobile model but a subject that he could reinterpret through position and lighting as a tool of artistic expression photography though was deficient in one respect that blurred the boundaries of what was being photographed talbot's metropolis was a plus plaster cast and not marble a difference that was not apparent from his photographs theoretical debates from art historians about how to photograph sculpture were not generally followed by those photographers institutions and publishers who saw sculpture as a legitimate subject to direct their lens act with education usually the rationale for making such images and of course the opportunity to make a profit it was the introduction of the collodion process in 1851 that allowed for the mass reproduction of photographs in a way that had not been possible with the daguerreotype and was not particularly satisfactory with talbot's color type the daguerreotype made a unique well-defined image on a metal plate the kala type made a negative with the emulsion within the fibres of paper resulting in a slightly soft image the collodion process overcame these drawbacks producing a well-defined negative on glass which when printed on albumin paper which had been introduced in 1849 could produce a sharp image with good tonality that could be printed hundreds of times for sale it could also be made as a direct positive on glass too furthermore the collodion process was unencumbered by patent so that it was freely available for anyone to use as an amateur or commercially the number of commercial studios grew dramatically from around 1854 and for museums and institutions it was quickly adopted as a means of sharing and disseminating their collections 1851 51 was also significant for the great exhibition which saw some six million visitors during its run sculpture was exhibited photographed and disseminated through the daguerreotype in calotype and the engravings made from them they were sold commercially to visitors via the photographers with licenses to photograph the exhibits teletypes are also tipped into the monumental reports of the juries and sculpture in part by nature its presence in the galleries and spaces was prominent the 1862 international exhibition also made use of photography to document and to make available photographs and stereographs in glass or on cards of the exhibits as did other exhibitions such as the men such as the manchester art treasures exhibition of 1857 and many others throughout the century roger fenton one of the founders of the photographic society was employed from 1852 by charles wheatstone to photograph antiquities and sculpture held at the british museum and in the autumn of 1853 he was employed directly by the museum trustees to photograph its collections a studio was built on the museum's roof with fenton paying for his assistance his photographs and stereographs made in the museum place sculpture in the context of the museum's galleries and rarely are backdrops used to hide what was going on behind the precise commercial arrangements between the photographer and the trustees could be the subject of an essay in their own right but in 1859 they decided that the cost of the photographic materials was too high and proposed that the processing and printing be carried out at the south kensington museum to save money as it was subsidized by the government fenton of course objected and his association with the museum came to an end charles thurston thompson another member of the photographic society who had worked with henry cole on the 1851 great exhibition established a studio at the museum and became its official photographer photographing works of art including sculpture his work appeared in museum publications and was sold commercially for the education of artists and the public thompson died in 1866 and in 1868 his sister isabelle agnes calper took over his role as museum photographer a position she retained until she retired in 1891 her photography within the v a is the subject of a phd currently being undertaken by erica lederman and it is to erica that credits should be given to bringing calper back to public recognition away from institutional photography commercial publishers such as ph delamot and the london stereoscopic company were photographing and selling prints of sculpture and adding sculpture from across europe to their list of photographs and stereographs for sale the photographs were made by a variety of photographers contracted to work for the company and it would commission all photographers to produce work for a particular series or sets that had issued for example by country other photographers did much the same and in no particular order francis bedford published extensive series of views from the uk and from his overseas tours they were sold directly and also appeared in print george washington wilson of aberdeen and one of the largest photographic publishers also produced published pictures of sculpture overseas publishers photographed in britain and british publishers sold views and of statutory from overseas the london stereoscopic company was an extensive publisher francis frith also a major publisher of photographic views from the uk and abroad chris photo pictures here from an 1869 catalogue and p mitchell was a london publisher selling his own photography and that is that of others from an 1876 catalogue mansell was based in gloucester and sold his own and other photographs under his own name this is his photographs list from 1869 showing the statuary the negretti and zambra company had a particular relationship with photography formed around 1850 it was a scientific instrument maker but it had taken an interest in photography selling photographic equipment and running a photographic studio in 1853 when the buildings of the great exhibition were re-erected in sydney the company became the official photographers to the crystal palace company it published views of the crystal palace's photographs and the stereo cards and stereo positives on glass as the craze for stereoscopy waned during the 1870s a new market developed for slides for the magic lantern which was by now a serious tour within educational institutions and for educating audiences in churches temperance societies and in working men's clubs and mechanics institutes the repurposed its 1862 exhibition photographs and other negatives for the lantern its catalogue of 1873 contained a specific section on statuary and statues were repeatedly mentioned as a distinct group alongside views it also promoted the fact that their lantern slides were printed for projection on albumin rather than collodion quote as definition and clearness fit for exhibition are only to be obtained from albumin prince the list of statuary included the firm's crystal palace series with over 400 subjects each priced at two shillings and sixpence which is around seven pounds eighty today and a typical lantern show would have some 80 to 100 slides in it its stereoscopic glass slides and cards were priced at three shillings and sixpence or one shilling respectively with the revival of interest in stereoscopy from the 1890s publishers such as underwood and underwood and realistic travels issued treble series of stereo cards in which statuary featured prominently as monuments in cities and within particular galleries such as the vatican and the great national museums single photographs of individual statuary also continue to be photographed for tourists and visitors locally for art students and for study from the later 1890s the growth of the photographic record and survey movement began to record objects and monuments such as statuary local customs and landscape at a time of great change and it was catalyzed by the growth in amateur photography and groups of people wanting to work towards a common goal which probably sounds familiar to most of you listening today first proposed by william jerome harrison in 1889 the national photographic record association was established in 1897 by sir benjamin stone and it when it closed almost 6 000 prints were amassed at a local level there were county groups camera clubs fielding societies and survey groups formed specifically to document local areas elizabeth edwards has described this and their work in her book the camera as historian so in conclusion we saw how photography started using statuary as a means to test itself and to show others that it what it could do and how differing views over uh isolating stature or leaving it in its surroundings and contextualized was still being debated at the end of the century we saw how museums and institutions use photography of their sculpture and stature to show off their collections for educational purposes and how publishers photograph statues and sculpture as important points of interest as subject matter for tourists and again for education along of course for their own commercial gain with photographs stereographs and lantern slides were the means of dissemination at different times and we saw how amateur photography imparts through the record and survey movement photograph sculpture and statuary as part of its own remit photography is quote renewing as noted by carol zane at the start of this talk did not stop in 1900 or 1914 amateur photographers were serious about their art or the application of photography but there was a new amateur in the form of the snapshotter using the kodak and the brownie and other simple cameras who are interested in the photograph rather than the process and the technicalities of photography their numbers grew dramatic dramatically from the 1890s they wanted to record families and friends their social activities and the places they visited they brought a new aesthetic to photography out of the confines of the studio mainly outdoors usually informal and unconstrained by a professional approach or the strictures of amateur photography it approached the photography of sculpture in a new way thank you very much for your attention thank you michael um some fascinating insights there into 19th century sculpture a photography of sculpture indeed we will um take questions for both papers at the end of the next session so we will we'll move straight into the next session with um derek trillo and alex paterson they will be talking well their paper is entitled looking beyond the surface the visual experience of sculptra and derek is a freelance photographer based near manchester and also teaches photography on ba modules for the open college of the arts i'm alex patterson is assistant curator of fine arts at national museums liverpool with responsibility for documentation care management and display of the fine art collections across national museums liverpool's galleries um thank you derek and alex over to you thanks camilla uh and thanks to katie and everyone at our uk for inviting us to speak i'll just share my screen and then start an investigation began while completing the art uk photography sessions we discussed various issues relating to sculpture including engagement display lighting perspective materials and techniques we also observed and analyzed how visitors experienced and interacted with the sculpture within the gallery environment national museums liverpool has one of the most important sculpture collections in the uk holding over a thousand works it has the largest collection of sculpture in the northwest region it is particularly well known for its outstanding work made between the 18th century and the first world war including iconic examples of brienly british neoclassicism and new sculpture the sculpture display at the walker art gallery is unique displaying over 150 works in a single room it is one of our most popular exhibits the space allows the viewer to experience many sculptures in the round from a range of different perspectives and viewed with both natural and artificial lighting over several days photographing the works for art uk we were able to observe visitor movement and interaction giving great insight into how these works were being interpreted unfortunately when we proposed to research and record these interactions we were under the restrictions of covid which greatly affected how we were able to document our findings we have done our best to compile and analyze what we could i wanted to record this movement around the works and analyze the level of engagement visitors had with sculpture i previously shot accumulations of movements through spaces such as this one which is every person passing through in 20 minutes it shows movement and direction or every plane in 20 minutes it shows repeated travel along a single route this is something i'd like to try within galleries as time lapse sequences and we're committed to i shot a trial outdoors for freedrick engel stack statue in manchester very few passersby looked at the statue one at his position well above their field of view that's the first person i found who was actually looking at the statue in the middle to the two on the left there an outdoor sculpture that is at ground level and encourages viewers interactions is jeremy della's peterloo memorial also in manchester it could have provided a contrast with engel's statue which is currently within the outer corner of a nightingale hospital lack of tourists unlimited local travel have dramatically reduced impact on the public's involvement with sculptures outdoors we still aim to produce films indoors later in the year and our uk has indicated that they will be willing to share the results what we've managed to shoot in the gallery are images that help us to articulate various aspects of visitors engagement that we've observed from a curatorial perspective so although the walk art gallery offers space to view sculpture from a range of perspectives we noticed that visitors sometimes encountered difficulty engaging with three-dimensional works the wide range of perspectives and the sculpture's close proximity to one another offered too many visual options when walking around the sculpture the viewer the viewers playing is not not only encounters the sculpture they were looking at but also the sculptures in the immediate and distant areas overwhelming and often distracting the viewer's gaze this seemed to compromise and interrupt the visitors focus drawing their attention to different works or details in the room in this scenario the option to separate a sculpture from its surrounding has substantial viewing benefits photography can offer this alternative isolating a sculpture from its environment giving a viewer a more focused experience concentrating on a sculpture in isolation as a self-contained and autonomous work draws attention to its composition and materials the viewing of sculpture is always associated with the making of it close inspection allows the viewer to appreciate the contrasts and the textures of the sculpture in a more focused way the photography taken by art uk for this project can isolate each work while also offering a range of perspectives where possible producing an experience similar to viewing the sculpture in the round art uk also photograph key details or materials associated with each sculpture join the viewers attention to more important aspects and enhancing their interpretation and understanding of a particular work from a curatorial perspective this could act as a visual aid to accompany text interpretation on gallery or online and give a further understanding of the work generally speaking visitors seem to engage more easily with two-dimensional objects than with sculpture it's almost as if there is a familiarity and awareness in reading information from a flat object as opposed to something in the round it is clear that the inclusion of a framing design device as photography does both directs our gaze and helps us to interpret what we see for example we are used to reading from left to right and top to bottom in the western world sculpture's three-dimensional quality when combined with this movement changes and even challenges the view that is in front of us for this reason alone there's there is an application for photography as an interpretive framing device two weeks ago grayson perry showed on his art club channel for tv show as he reflects on his sculptures at various stages of its development by photographing it which also provides that extra use for photography in terms of production as a case study we studied we selected john gibson's tinted venus which was incidentally used for the art uk focal eyes project too it is displayed prominently on top of a plinth at the center of the sculpture gallery venus is in a large circular case with long columns supporting its dome top there are windows on each side of the case to enable the viewer the sculpture to be viewed from all sides in this instance its case offers both pros and cons to visitor engagement and interpretation firstly its plastic curved windows are highly reflective making it difficult to see what's inside when the natural light floods into the gallery secondly columns obstruct the viewer's gaze and they are unable to see the object as a whole therefore unable to properly interpret what they see thirdly it obstructs the natural fall of light and the sculpture is mostly cast in shadow however in contrast the case acts as a framing device isolating it from the rest of the gallery directing the viewer to focus and concentrate on what is in front of them separation from the rest of the works also adds an area of importance like a cabinet of curiosities encouraging the viewer to look closer visitors often peer through the windows commenting on the parts that were not visible to them before in addition it allows the sculpture to be lit from above by artificial lighting emphasizing the work's form and composition photography can enhance both the positive and negative aspects of viewing in this example it can offer access to a full image of the work where the viewing of it in real life is obscured however the photographic framing device removes it removes its context from the gallery environment greatly affecting our interpretation of it the understanding of sculpture is shaped by art history in particular the sculptures the sculptors biography and the display of their work the physical sculpture gallery setting offers a range of art historical interpretations as the sculpture is viewed alongside other works by john gibson and his contemporaries also with works from earlier periods and later periods and amongst works of contrasting materials and techniques showing the development of style and influence the curation option on the art uk website is certainly an important and interesting addition to this project in relation to aspects of context a photograph of a sculpture used within the curation resource is a way of looking at a full-scale single sculpture in the context of art history it can draw attention to a particular sculpture and place it alongside works from other collections by different sculptors from a range of different periods this curation device recontextualizes the sculpture in the same way as an exhibition or a permanent redisplay can but perhaps more importantly it can do so without the cost and difficulties associated with sculpture movement in the display in this experiment the sculpture is in a gallery with south-facing windows the light rotates around the sculpture as if showing a whole day of the sun's movement you see changes in the colour of lighting relative intensities of natural and artificial light and crucially significant changes to the modelling of light across the subject lighting which suggests its three dimensional qualities lighting greatly affects and influences how a visitor responds to a work of art and this is particularly true with sculpture it is transformative and enlightening to see sculpture with bespoke lighting it can emphasize and accentuate form and composition while also drawing attention to specific details here derek has tried to capture transient moments of light to reveal translucency in the marble it highlights the skills and techniques used by the sculptor and the remarkable qualities of the marble the lack of polychrome gives marble and stone a visual purity allowing the viewer to concentrate on the carved forms the shadows and highlights created by light playing across the surface are extremely important in the way we experience sculpture through photography we can try and recreate these light these changes of light and offer new visual experiences that are not available within a permanent gallery environment marble sculptures like the one we are using as case studies here tend to be made of life-size or larger mainly because as a material it is cut into large blocks and if carved too thinly it is prone to cracking sculptures could be intended to be seen from a distance i open the building so the sculpture would alter the form and composition to compensate for those viewing perspectives figures could be large and they would sometimes have a longer necks shown here is calgo carlo alvarcini's mustard minerva a copy after one of the so-called athena of the letter an example of the full-size statue is displayed in the louvre the lubricator statue towers over its visitors you must look upwards to see the figure's face at the walker art gallery the bust is displayed at waist height enabling the visitors to examine it closely this is a fantastic benefit as we can see the details of minerva's helmet for example the medusa's snakes shown on the top however it's important to acknowledge visitors in our experience from the viewpoint that was originally intended through photography we are able to offer this perspective as an addition as an additional interpretive tool both online and on gallery enhancing the viewers understanding of its production and purpose in addition if sculpture would intended to be viewed at a distance sculptures would heighten details of the hair or beard for example so the features would be seen more clearly as seen in joseph angelini's head of jupiter the drill would be used extensively to deepen the carved details the sculptor this sculpture is a copy of the original in the vatican and canova is said to have preferred the carving of the beard in this work to the original due to the over-emphasized details again photography can highlight the techniques used here by enlarging these details for visitors to examine and consider more carefully benjamin spence's highland mary is a wonderful example of texture and finish created by a sculpture here we can prominently see the sculptor's use of the claws chisel and drill amongst other techniques it shows great contrast from the highly polished figure giving the viewer more insight into how the work is made if an image such as this were used as an interpretive tool on gallery it could enhance the visitors appreciation and understanding of the sculptor's skill and draw attention to why a detail may be significant in addition this visual prompt could also engage visitors who may not ordinarily pause to read text label label text giacomo de maria's death of virginia is displayed at the center of the walker's normally busy cafe this magnificent work was created for sculptures to study at the academy of fine art in bologna the sculptor said and i quote work was one of great difficulty due to the multiple viewpoints the interweaving of the lines and the fact that the problems of execution turned out to be more difficult than any other operation in sculpture unquote this complicated group of figures has multiple viewpoints and was designed to be an object lesson in sculptural composition therefore our spectator must move around it to understand the whole and appreciate the complexities of its execution its current placement in the cafe although it is given space to be viewed in the round when considered more carefully the environment still greatly affects what this visitor perceives so if we look at this example in terms of our original investigation of how photography can enhance a visitors engagement and experience of sculpture we can draw some conclusions regarding to the problematic viewing of sculpture in the gallery setting and perhaps highlight potential possibilities of using photography in a more useful and engaging way upon entering the gallery the walker art gallery a visitor is immediately confronted with the welcome desk obscuring the full view of this sculpture once the visitor reaches a point where the sculpture can be viewed as a whole their position in relation to the work is not ideal and the perspective distorts the form of the group this is also true of the visitors sitting in the gallery uh sitting at the cafe table sorry who are positioned at an even lower viewpoint with their viewers obscured by other visitors however acknowledgement must be made up to the many viewpoints that are available in this vast unique space that the death of virginia occupies but here photography can provide the ideal perspective for the work and others like it to enhance our understanding of the group's dynamic and complex composition when we have observed the cafe environment we found that this statue exemplifies the lack of engagement the businesses can have with certain sculptures it's setting within a busy catering environment distracts from the viewing experience it almost becomes invisible within the space because viewers are concerned with hospitality and social aspects of the cafe rather than viewing of art the sculptures placements greatly affect its constant context and our experiences when viewing it in addition the informal location does not provide the framework to present the tattoos prestige in the same way as the tinted venus in the sculpture gallery the buildup of dirt on the figures sandals from general plinth area indicates a lack of appreciation of the sculpture as a fine art object as visitors touch and repurpose it due to the informal social setting the lighting is also a mixture of ambient daylight and spotlighting designed to illuminate the surrounding areas not the sculpture lastly the sheer size and scale of the sculpture creates physical distance and a barrier between the viewer and the details of the figures materials and techniques all of the aspects all of these aspects can be explored and shared in different ways through photography to enhance our understanding of sculpture photography is by no means a substitute for seeing a work in real life however when it is used as an interpretive tool in addition to the gallery environment or online its benefits can be far-reaching although this is only a small part of the research we would have liked to have done due to covered restrictions we hope to continue this work and fully observe public engagement with these sculptures in the walker's environment um yeah that's it i'm very much listening if everybody's still listening thank you very much um thank you very much both of you if you stop screen share um well thank you some um really interesting insights there and just really interesting to see between the two papers actually how um there are parallels in in 19th century photography of sculpture and contemporary photography of sculpture and and you know strong parallels as well in how we engage with sculpture just the the example you gave at the end there um where the sculpture is at the back of the cafe people are not particularly reverential to it um but and similarly to you and michael where you concluded with people having family photographs in front of sculptures out in various town parks it's just a lovely a lovely parallel there um i thought i'll just have a look to see i think the questions i think you've mostly answered the questions actually online there are a few questions addressed to michael looking for references etc um i had a question oh hang on there's a couple more questions coming up um kieran mccarthy has the walker art gallery interviewed visitors on what they see in the sculptures or how they interpret them uh no that's kind that that's one of the things that we would like to have done as part of the project but um yeah with with copied restrictions and things like that we were hoping constantly that we'd be able to get full um full access to uh everyone in the gallery and we just weren't able to do that which but i think i think i think you're right i think that would be a really interesting way of sort of you know moving this kind of research forward and seeing what how they engage with sculpture and how they think they engage with sculpture thank you does anybody else have anything to add to that um there's another question here from melanie furtado um she's curious to hear how you are envisaging utilizing photography as described to highlight the viewer's focus in the gallery perhaps through digital displays or or i don't know whether you'd like to say a little bit more about that i think that's addressed to you um alex again um so actually i mean i have to be quite honest that this paper was originally proposed by derek who is going to do a lot of the uh so i'm passing the book a bit here um so he was gonna do a lot of the digital side of of the photography and um i was going to kind of take his lead on that if that makes any sense but moving forward our sculpture gallery at the walker art gallery was installed in the 1980s it's it's very outdated it needs new interpretation it needs new display um and i would like this research to be part of a project to work towards that uh in the future but if you'd like to say a bit more about your research i think i think i mean you touched on various aspects in in the in the text you wrote because i did all the images and likes did the majority of the text um so you were mentioning things we could see through photography or we could highlight or we could specifically show um partly from being in a particular position or a particular height or angle or whatever or by isolating backgrounds or that kind of thing and these sort of things would be perhaps easier to digest in in a gallery setting if they were shown possibly digitally as you suggest maybe by you know adding to the text panels or whatever certainly they they would be something you would enhance with your you know your website and your outputs and your twitter feeds and whatever else you you put out there um because you would could then talk about um sculpture and indeed any other three-dimensional object in a much more illustrative way by showing particular details of particular aspects but they would have to be shot on purpose i guess i wonder if it'd be interesting to um i mean i was just thinking about this actually well we've got that question but if you could somehow um you this technology nowadays that actually shows what you're looking at isn't that so it'd be interesting if our visitors were you know as participants perhaps in in research uh to walk around with something that would actually show what they were looking at and maybe looking at and analyzing that data would be quite interesting too and michael i think you had something to say as well yeah i think it's just something that happened over christmas actually and it's a new way i think we might want to think about interacting with sculpture over christmas a dealer and photograph collector sent me this which hopefully most of you can see but it's a 3d printed rendering of patroclus um so it's the the image it's the statue that talbot was photographing in the 1830s and 1840s and as i rotate it round then the light's not great here we're just about to have a heavy rainstorm but you start to get get a sense of what talbot was saying about how light falls in different ways and how he can reinterpret that statue but this is you know this is what 12 12 centimeters high three inches or so but it's just a new way that we can actually interact and engage with statue with new technologies open this up for us yeah the comparison of the way light is used and the importance of natural light in photographing sculpture came through very strongly in both of your papers so equally important in the 20th century when we have all sorts of electronic means available to us as in the 19th century very very interesting though i think michael's just neatly uh at least in part answer the next question as well which is how do you see 3d capture enhancing the presentation of sculpture almost like a premonition that's amazing 3d printing but also the virtual environment as well i guess is there's a way to engage and rotate being able to do things on a screen perhaps but there's something nice about the tactility of this which i it's my my mascot as i was talking yeah the only the only downside to that of course is the the time and effort involved in getting all sculptures out and and scanning them all as we know from having photographed many hundreds with animal and others um cost there's another question here and we've got time for a couple more questions um have you asked working sculptors in liverpool on their views um when when the person comes to liverpool they often visit with terry mcdonald who gives an amazing view of the collection um i guess i guess asking for insight into into what sculptors think about um presentation etc of their artworks please correct me if i've um or add something again to the question if i've not quite interpreted your question correctly you just um so i think um i think obviously it's quite a dif different sort of thing to what we were talking about in the paper because we were talking about um well the historic uh display of sculpture and then how we interpret it now in in the gallery setting and obviously the different context which within which it's being viewed um we haven't um we haven't done as as they've said but um it would be something really interesting i think to look at questions and last question um which i think you've partly discussed as well but but we'll finish after this question um have you made specific recommendations to institutions around how to play sculpture and on the research you're undertaking at the moment will you share guidance and findings when that research is um research is complete and perhaps how would you share those those that guidance and those findings yes and i think um yeah i think you know you can answer that um yeah well it's because of the restriction i mean when the gallery was open in the summer it was uh you know one of the only people separated et cetera et cetera it wasn't a natural progression of people moving around uh in the way that you would expect them to so trying to make observations on those conditions wasn't really what we're looking for we're trying to find out what actually happens um things like you know how long people spend spend somewhere you know the dwell time as it's called here when we've managed to do this and we've got some real data to share and to analyze then yeah we may well make um specific recommendations um from the curatorials perspective that's alex more than b i'm just a photographer teacher etc i don't i don't actually work in the gallery environment apart from shooting things what's interesting about the art uk project is it sort of gave us the opportunity to be in the gallery uh for a specific you know quite a long period of time we and it was out of those discussions that we we started sort of going well this is interesting why is that larger than that and why is this you know and i think i think when it comes to displaying things i think we're going to continue to learn and with the sculpture gallery as it is at the moment we know that there's problems with it and we know that um it is perhaps what obviously it's very updated but i think it offers so many wonderful examples and if we can do this research we can then use that going forward to redisplay and i think derek's already had conversations with art uk would be really happy to share the research that we can hopefully compile together when we can get back in the gallery space um and share and it would be lovely to go you know to do something like this and talk to other people uh in their galleries and sort of compare and contrast different ideas about displaying sculpture so hopefully moving forward if anyone would like to do that that would be a really interesting project i'm sure as well that's something we could um feature on art uk as a series of articles etc in relation to the um sort of legacy of the sculpture project going forwards um so i think we are there we've run very well to time thank you very much everybody um thank you to the audience for some really interesting questions thank you to derrick alex and michael for some fascinating papers um i believe there's a networking event which you have to have pre-registered for happening next and then the afternoon sessions start again at two o'clock i think thank you very much everybody thank you you
